And a bunch of innocent people will die in the crossfire. Responsible gun owners have never been the problem, its the ones who are going to be carrying guns outside the home who are not responsible who are going to kill innocent people.

A bunch of innocent people will die? First gun control is hitting your target...Second car jackings have been stopped by people with CCW's..If you stop someone and they surrender and you shoot them that's murder.What makes a criminal drop his weapon when a police officer comes? The Gun...Third..The man was comming in to shoot people...people were going to get shot...and if CCW was active already...chances are the guy wasn't going to commit the crime....4th. Atleast people will have the chance to defend themselves...rather have e option than to be a sitting duck...5th guns are made by people..To ban them is impossible...People have the knowledge lead backed by exploding powder makes a weapon..People make guns...The government can confinscate all the guns in one sweep know what will happen? People will make somemore...point being your not going to stop criminals from going into a place and shooting it up,or stabbing people..all you do is make easy victims if you unarm citizens...Jail is obviously not a deterrent,...

Don't you people get it? What makes you think that the type of person who opens fire in public is thinking at all, let alone capable of thinking twice? And if he or she is thinking, their thought process is probably so far gone and delusional that the thought of someone carrying a weapon will not be a deterren. Someone packing heat may gun him down, but if gunning down the mentally ill makes our world a better place than this world is really headed for disaster. The criminally insane are irrational individuals with twisted ways of reasoning.....and you may aim for him but this isn't the wild west where the crowd falls to the wayside while the gunslingers have a shoot out....innocent people will be in that crossfire.

"What makes a criminal drop his weapon when a police officer comes? The Gun..."

How many times have we seen the criminal run from police or confront the police officer even after the police officer draws his weapon?

"Third..The man was comming in to shoot people...people were going to get shot...and if CCW was active already...chances are the guy wasn't going to commit the crime...."

CCW is allowed in 49 states and there is still crime. Do you really think CCW will stop people from committing crime.

"Jail is obviously not a deterrent,..."

Neither is the death penalty.

Amen to that

@logans dad....Ask your self this...if you are in a place with your kids and someone comes in and points a gun at your families faces and demands money,and grabs your kid.....Now what is the one thing criminals do not want? Witnesses...What is the second thing he want?....To be free and not get caught.....How does he do this?....Ask some of the people that were in places that were robbed and shot up...They said " I felt like a sitting duck".....What we have here is a lack of people standing up for themselves and more people depending on others to protect them...Now go find some videos where people came in with guns to rob the place and someone with a gun stopped it.....No I do not think CCW will stop crime but it will make equality against people who try to do harm to you...Don't you even want the chance to fight for your life against some creep who wants to end you and your families life?....Ask yourself would you be more likely to go up to some one and rob them knowing they might have a gun? would you be willing to go into a store and rob it knowing the owner might have a gun.....I bet not...Equality is what helps not to become a victim...Reality is you never know when someone will come in and grab your kids and use them as a shield...a guy running from police is likely to do it..And how many people do we have run? A lot..Me.I keep my knife with me at all times out on my side at all time..I am not afraid to live here or anywhere...But I am ready...

"if you are in a place with your kids and someone comes in and points a gun at your families faces and demands money,and grabs your kid....."

John, In a situation like this, do you honestly think people who are carrying a concealed weapon will actually have time to use it? Please be realistic.

"What we have here is a lack of people standing up for themselves and more people depending on others to protect them..."

No what we have here is the pro-gun crowd that thinks they will be able to use their weapon to defend themseleves in any situation. CCW is legal in all states except IL. Was there anyone carrying a CCW at the mall in Portland or the movie theather in Denevr? If so you never heard of anyone carrying a CCW that used it and started shooting back at the gunmen.

"Ask yourself would you be more likely to go up to some one and rob them knowing they might have a gun?"

The majority of people are law abiding and dont go around robbing and killing people. Ask yourself this, ifyou were carrying a gun, but the criminal had a much larger and faster gun, would you even pull out your gun knowing it is no match to what the criminal is using?

@ momof5....what would you do if someone came in and grabbed one of your 5? Wait for someone else to protect the kids it is your responsibility to protect...Yeah that's real assuring to the kids I can tell ya that...I will say this..my dad carried a 25 in his pocket at all times..in the 80's and 90's when all the gang bangin really started to kick in here in Joliet...we had some come down our street messing with people,throwing bricks,and pulling guns...UNTIL...my uncle and my dad stopped the car,pulled out their guns and showed them we are all equally loaded up around here...No more truck,we never seen them again....never seen the truck.....This is all about standing up for yourself,for your family..because being dependent of the police..well now...you have already become a victim..then the police come and take your report..What don't you get?.And most of the time when people in other states have stopped a crime from being commited .NOT a SHOT was ever fired.do your homework and quit listening to so much of your news media.Common sense should tell you.A human with no tools or weapon is useless and at the bottom of the food chain..Hell a human can barely fight off a couple of dogs without being severely hurt...you just keep putting off your responsibility to protect your family and placing it in the hands of others and keep on wondering why people keep getting hurt...make it the responsibility of others and sit around and complain to government why you didn't do your job too.

@logansdad. Here is a video of some robber going into a place and a71 year old man fed up with crap from criminals....he shot both of them...and the guys fellow robber stepped on him and left him...
http://www.break.com/index/71-year-old-man-shoots-cafe-robbers-2349328

You ask would I pull my gun..Damn right I would....if I am going to die I at least want the chance to see if is going to be him or me..not just me...
Most of the time no one even has to fire a shot and the criminal stops and drops his weapon..it's been going on all around the Nation but do you think your local news is going to promote it.Hell no.. They don't put gun rights people who have faught back or defended their lives and won on the news...the only put the victims...Crime has been stopped because of weapons being carried...look at the crime rates..I am just as surprised as you are..car jacking,robberies,rapes,,and some people carrying the guns have even helped the police..when they saw a person wrestling with the officers and someone comes up and points their gun at them guess what they did..Stopped,the person Recieved an award for BRAVERY for helping the officer...Funny how that works...As far as the people in the theater it was the theater that did not want the guns buddy..not the state law...are you more likely to run into a place that welcomes guns or a place that bans them?.not hard to figure out witch is it?

@logansdad...your out of touch with the real world buddy...as far as if the guy had a bigger and faster weapon...so what your saying is you would rather lay down and die because the other persons gun is bigger and faster?....Yep that's exactly what the Jews did too.and Italy..and what happened..oh yeah that one guy named Hitler came in and killed millions of them..and took over their country...and what made them leave...oh yeah Americans who didn't care about who had bigger and faster guns...While you lay there and accept what even someone else wants to do to you..even death because you fear them,maybe someone with a gun can come along and help you out...

now it doesnt matter about concealed guns or not now illinois wants to take away all of the publics guns and ammo. then the crime rate will really go up and there will be more shootings because the everyday joe will not be able to protect themselves and they even want to take away shotguns that people use to harvest animals legal to hunt by gun but will not be allowed to own these guns if the new bill goes through and is signed.. im sure the world is going to be in alot of trouble if this is allowed to happen/ just a concerned citizen in illinois-- god bless us all we r going to need it!!

I hope you don't count yourself as a "Responceable Gun" owner, you can't even spell responsible. The fact that a dipstick like yourself is walking around with a gun is horrifying!

Completely agree with Mr. Banana.

Just because you can't spell right does not mean you can not shoot straight...Let's look at stereotypes...hillbillies as people say,mountain people,rednecks...have been known to be some of the most elite gun shooters...a lot of the soldiers that are snipers came from some farm where they shot their guns all the time,hunting,fun,or running of coyotes...it all adds up to being one hell of a shooter

The state will require you to take a course specifically for the Conceal and Carry permit. The prices will range depending on how many states it is good for.

Infamous , retired Police Officers have to pay every year for requalifications so should everyone else then.

@Ben D Banana

Reply with an argument that is intelligent, and appropriate, instead of calling someone a dipstick for incorrect spelling. His opinion is as valid as anyone else's, Kevin is not the dipstick here, you are.

Take it easy, Grandpamike. You don't want to poop your Depends this early in the day. Sure, Kevin has a right to his opinion, just as I have the right to make fun of him for not being able to spell. It seems to me if someone is allowed to carry a gun, they should have some form of intelligence and not knowing how to spell simple, everyday words is pretty bad. If I'm a bad person because I don't want guns in the hands of dumbos, then I guess I'm a bad person.

Training, and permit, hopefully a reasonable fee,still need a F.O.I.D. as of today.

@Ben D Banana

Instead of snarky comments, maybe you could use your, obviously superior intellect to say something meaningful, that is of course, if you have even a basic command of the English language. Also, I may be a grandpa, but I am an armed one, even when wearing my Depends.

Most states already have CCw and it is Illinois that didn't want to recognize others permits..As far as most states go they acknowledge the other states permits..as far as going through the state and visiting...If your there more than 30 days in most states you are a resident and have to change the info.like your license...The states still want to know who has a gun.

Good comment!

Thugs aren't the only ones that shoot people. Responsible gun owners? Like the dad who owned one and his son got a of it and shot me in the chest when I was 11?
Those kind?

Stones, another example is the responsible gun owner who allowed his rifle to be stolen which was then used to kill three people in a mall yesterday afternoon.

Most people who people who worry about "thugs" don't live anywhere near where "thugs" live and commit crimes. Crime is a reality, no doubt, but more crimes happen when people don't have the sense to diffuse their own emotions...being hot headed and responding with increasing levels of aggression is what gets people killed....perfect example....grandpa mike gets offended by Ben Bananas and proceeds to remind him that he carries a weapon.....this is what I mean, people want to shout about the one constitutional right and then have the nerve not to tolerate freedom of speech.

@Mom of 5

You are incorrect, I am not offended by the comments that Banana's made, he is entitled to comment, I was just pointing out that it was not necessary to demean someone because his spelling was not acceptable to Banana, Read what I said and also the follow up to his remarks. Also, I don't carry a weapon but would vote for concealed carry, I stated I HAVE a weapon and would use it in defense of my property, family and myself.

Hey stones no one said their shouldn't be requirements to owning and carrying a weapon...I do not know your situation to being shot,arguement,kids being kids..but in the end if the gun was being played with then yeah that's lack of parenting by keeping the gun secure.but even then people are people if you too were playing with it then you knew what you guys were doing..being ignorant and playing with a gun you were not supposed to have...self responsibility...If it was an arguement then it still breaks it down to parenting and security of the guns...If it was an arguement ask yourself didn't you feel like a sitting duck whole a gun was being pointed at you? Helpless? It still boils down to someone that was not supposed to have a gun had one..And that's what law abiding citizens want to protect themselves against...weather kids or not...gangs were using kids to commit shootings remember? And sad to say if a kid pulled a gun only family I would shoot him.....Twice

John Roberts, no one was playing with a gun in my situation. The other kid came out of his parents room, pointed it at me and shot me in the chest. Clearly that was his intent. Why? I have no idea, other than crazy I guess. But if he didn't have access to a gun, it would not have happened.

@ stones... The kids parents are at fault for letting access to the gun..The kid could of plunged a knife into your chest as well..if that was his intent to harm you in the first place...could of waited for your back to be turned if he is that screwed up in the head to begin with...reality is no matter what you are never safe...

"The kids parents are at fault for letting access to the gun"

So much for being a responsible gun owner then. What is the law going to do to the irresponsible gun owner if they are dead.

"The kid could of plunged a knife into your chest as well..if that was his intent to harm you in the first place"

A bow and arrow could have been used as well, but why is the gun always the weapon of choice in committing a crime and for protecting oneself.

Michigans Example for What?

2 words DROP GUN

Please a drop gun Rick, you think that would be okay for a citizen to do, but if a Police Officer did it everyone would say arrest and fire him. Double standards?

True, to a certain extent, but if you awake in the middle of the night, or even during the day and there is an intruder in your house, who may be armed, you should be within your rights if you have to use deadly force to protect your life, that of your family, and also your property.

Home invasion, car jacking, we still should have the right to protect ourselves no matter where we are.

AK-47? Now, that's where the real problem lies, aside from the degenerate criminals. Why in the world would anyone need or want that type of weapon? I'm sure that's not what our Founding Father's had in mind when they drafted the Second Ammendment. You know, the one where every one forgets that "well regulated militia" stuff.

I'm really not opposed to gun ownership per se, I just think there should be some common sense involved.

"Home invasion, car jacking, we still should have the right to protect ourselves no matter where we are."

You do. You can use a baseball bat, crowbar, your hands, etc. Why is the gun your first weapon of choice?

Logansdad; because he cant throw a crowbar at 1100 feet per second !!!

Yeah that the mentality Logan'sdad just let the criminal do as he pleases...let's take a look at the schools..both banned guns being on the property..did that stop the criminal.nope... Hey bud If someone pulls a guenon you and you wanna sit there and be shot anyways because you are a witness that's your choice buddy..go a head..like I said just because you don't or wouldn't want to fight back does not mean the rest of do not.if it came down to him or you and you do not want to fight that's your choice...because you fear getting killed.....well to me the invader of liberty should be just as scared too..if you let people rob,rape,kill others and do nothing but show them you will not fight back..a trend of it occurring again will continue..the person will leave you with your stuffin his pockets and go rob someone else on the way home..but let that guy get shot at or a gun pulled on him and see if he does it again..let him see everytime he goes to do it people have guns see if it changes his mind..as much as you would like for it not to happen..it is proven in states where CCW is allowed crime has dropped..period..you can not argue with that..being a good little victim causes more victims...it's the bully effect..once bullied and you do not stance your ground you get bullied more...but there is always going to the teachers which causes you to get bullied more and more as a snitch,crybaby...let the bully keep bullying and he will continue it

@logansdad

Yes, always bring your hands, bat, crowbar to a situation when the other person has a gun. Or would you stealthily approach and attack him , without a sound and defend yourself ?

Just pointing out that you always have the right to defend yourself in any situation. You can disarm a person with a gun with your hands.

Why do you rely on the gun as your weapon of choice?

@logansdad...That is some superhero thinking you got...disarming a man with a gun is not likely going to happen..chances are your getting shot buddy...for sure...You a defender have to get close,he does not,you have to move your body in ways that will signal your going to try something,he does not,you have to move quickly in a chaotic situation,he does not,you have to think about every move and "hopefully not stumble" while grabbing a gun pointed at you.He does not all he has to do is squeeze his fingers...You are unequally matched...If that was the case ...None of our plolice need guns,none of our military need guns...They should just be able to walk up and snatch a gun from someone...I will say this...When did it become someone else's responsibility to protect you and your family...I felt pretty safe where ever I went with my dad knowing he had a 25 on him at all times..We didn't fear being robbed,held up,or attacked...when all the gang banging started here in Joliet in the 80's and 90's...would he have shot someone...Damn right he would have..Did he have to pull his gun..damn right he did..did he have to shoot someone...NOT AT ALL...

"That is some superhero thinking you got...disarming a man with a gun is not likely going to happen..chances are your getting shot buddy...for sure..."

Thanks for proving my point John. CCW is not going to help you in most situations.

Like I said bud you just sit there and be a good little victim...your using my words to conform to your little world...My words were meant to call you a Fing idiot for trying to disarm a man instead of using your right to pull your gun..in reality most people do not want to get shot...do you not look up situations where people with guns helped law enforcement,citizens,shop owners...in most situations when people come running into a place with guns you are instantly a victim..you are under their leisure to do as they like...Would you let some people rape your wife while they had you at gun point or would you rather at least try to be a Fing man and put a bullet in some sorry asses that came and invaded your privacy and threatened the well being of your family?..people are always going to have guns..go around and collect all of them know what you will have? ....People will make more and they will be the hottest item on the black market....Just like drugs...and how is all of that war on drugs ending up...Shit just about all of the countries are in the steps to legalize the drugs..and not just marijuana...because in the end if you remove guns some wack job will make one and use it and guess what ...no one else will have one...lmao....what the hell world do you live in buddy..this ain't no fantasy land...you better wake up and quit ignoring shit,down playing reality,violence and life in general..with a gun at least you have a chance...sometimes thats all you need.

"...My words were meant to call you a Fing idiot for trying to disarm a man instead of using your right to pull your gun..in reality most people do not want to get shot.."

And what exactly do you think you are trying to do by using a gun to defend yourself.

When you pull a gun against someone else pointing a gun at you, chances are you both will end up being shot and killed.

"...in most situations when people come running into a place with guns you are instantly a victim"

If that is the case, how do you expect to pull out your gun and defend yourself if you are already the victim.

@ logansdad..come on you can not be that ignorant..I would be defending my self..know what criminals do not want? Witnesses....so chances are your going to be shot..or stabbed...but I can tell your just going to lay there and die..don't worry someone might help the rest of your family...glad you ain't my dad just stand there and let the criminal do as they please...cause a police report will make it all better...it will take it all back...so you can go to therapy and heal..if your not dead...
You remind me of the people Hitler killed when they laid down their weapons..I can see where the mentality to just give up and accept the gas chamber..but people like me and some others on here were the ones they would of had to shoot before they would of put me in a gas chamber...what allowed the governments of this world to round up citizens and murder them by the millions?..Guns that's what..Gun Power..
People have pulled their weapons when people came running into a place to rob it and the only people shot were the robbers...you act like everyone is just in a daze walking around staring at the skies.in your fantasy land...now in reality,you lock your door,you turn on your light,you set your alarms,you run different situations thought your head..and why? to be prepared.as far as both people ending up dead.not how it's been happening buddy not at all..either the robbers ended up dead,ran away,or wounded..no one else has been shot. In there instances..Guncontrol is hitting your target

"come on you can not be that ignorant..I would be defending my self..know what criminals do not want?"

You are the ignorant one if you don't think, you pulling a gun in order to defend yourself won't escalate an already tense situation. You think you are faster than the criminal in pulling your trigger.

"People have pulled their weapons when people came running into a place to rob it and the only people shot were the robbers...you act like everyone is just in a daze walking around staring at the skies"

Yes that is what happened at Columbine. That is what happened at Sandy Hook. The criminals walked in with their weapons and they were the only one shot. What reality are you living in. You still live in the wild wild west, where in any crime, you have a chance to pull out your weapon and disarm the criminal. You believe you can draw your weapon and fire before the criminal does. That is the reality you are living in.

Dave keep in mind if the law is passed. Guns will not be allowed in bars, sports and concert venues, State buildings , Federal parks and property and places were owners won't permit them.

Please tell us why?

OK. I just figured it was to compensate for anatomical inadequacies or something.

I guess you must be the one writing the law as you seem to know what and what not will be allowed,

Well, my non-faith in Government, at all levels has been strengthened, and a justice system that is so corrupt as well, but, since the NRA is backing this, payoffs will me made and we will have a CCW law passed.

I get most of my ammo from Wal-Mart as their prices are good. 100 rounds of .40 cal is only $35, which I think is fine. Where do you buy online that can match that price ?

That's what the county needs,more 2nd amendment Democrates like you and I.

Yee Haa! A gun-totin' MILF!

@Votermom

And perceptive as well. You know that Conservatives are the only one's that are manly enough to carry and shoot guns, but liberals are all anti-gun pansies who will wilt under the threat of being accosted by a gun wielding thug. Well, I am not only a liberal, and a grandfather, but come into my house with intent to do harm and you will be carried out in a body bag.

"gun-totin' MILF" i would love to see the movie....

P.S.I am a retired officer and was a federal firearm instructer and been carring a firearm for 40 years and have a current permit.

i am interested in how they will handle the ordinances as well. currently there are 39 municipalities with firearms ordinances in IL. how is one supposed to know what those laws are while traveling through. its hard enough to keep up with the laws state to state. many times law officers are not as familiar with the laws in their states as they think they are. Tip: when traveling armed from state to state print off the current state laws @nra.org and keep them in the glove box. Suggestion for the legislature: with a concealed carry law it would do good to include the castle doctrine as well as a peaceable carry law.

I bet the two people that died in the mall in Oregan yesterday felt the same way. I would rather carry my gun and not need it.

@Edward

True, so try. Well stated.

Ed, how did you derive from my post the fact that I never served in the military? Poor guess. I served in the US Army in the 60's during the Viet Nam era. I appreciate the fact that the military and law enforcement agencies protect my freedom and carry guns for me. That's all the more reason that I don't need to. Believe me, I couldn't care less if someone makes fun of me.

bill powell

I do not support concealed carry, but I agree with the premise of what Jeff C is saying. I'd take it a step further and posit that if I am storing a weapon and ammo correctly in my own home, I would not have time to unlock a weapon and ammo, load the weapon and confront an intruder in the name of protecting myself and my family.

Certainly anyone can potentially be the victim of a shooting at the mall, etc., but I feel much better about my chances of that happening than I do in hoping and praying that all the "responsible" gun owners who are packing while they grocery shop don't accidentally discharge their weapon or decide to "defend" themselves (or anyone else) with my family caught up in the crossfire. The whole thing is disturbing to me.

Fortunately, we live in an area where I do not feel an overwhelming sense of danger and see no reason to have my children watch mom and dad grab their guns on the way to do the Christmas shopping just on the off chance that a psycho appears in the toy aisle.

Well said!

I agree with Jeff C. 1000%.

Grandpamike,
Do your grandchildren ever visit?

@WilliamN

Yes they do, and I always have my weapon locked and put away when they are over.

"Yes they do, and I always have my weapon locked and put away when they are over."

And exactly how will you be able to protect anyone in that circumstance if your grandkids are over. You won't be able to since your guns is locked and put away.

@logansdad

So, I guess the answer would be to allow myself to holster and carry it all the time in my house, that way I can protect them when they are over ? Should I carry it in church or a ballgame or whatever other situation you can come up with to counter my argument ? The guns are locked away because that it the best way to ensure that they don't have access to them. We can never be safe 2 hours a day every day, can we?

"Should I carry it in church or a ballgame or whatever other situation you can come up with to counter my argument ?"

Isn't that the whole point of concealed carry - to be able to have your gun on yourself in case of an attack. It does you no good to have it locked up in certain circumstances. You were the one that was arguing that you should be able to protect yourself not matter where you were, but yet here you lock up your guns when grandkids are around.

@logansdad

Concealed carry is for when you are out and about, not when you are at home. Don't you find it counterproductive to your argument to state that by having common sense when there are children around by having said weapons locked away, that it does no good as far as protecting me or them to do that ? You cannot be protected 24 hours every day of your life but being pro-active in situations can make you safer most of the time.

"Don't you find it counterproductive to your argument to state that by having common sense when there are children around by having said weapons locked away, that it does no good as far as protecting me or them to do that ?"

Don't you find it counterpoductive to say you have a gun for protection, but then keep it locked up when kids are around. You just announced to every criminal that the best time to attack you is when kids are around because you wont have your gun handy.

"You cannot be protected 24 hours every day of your life but being pro-active in situations can make you safer most of the time."

True. But you don't need a gun to make yourself safer.

Logansdad is not in reality...he does not know people make guns..lol he thinks all the guns can be wiped from the earth...he thinks no one will make another gun to threaten people with..He thinks when the government says so people listen..He is a good little victim..he thinks that people will be safe and live in harmony if there were no guns....he must not know there are terrorist groups...armed to the teeth..He thinks we are safe from them if you remove all of the guns from the U.S....he does not remember Hitler or all of the people who laid down their weapons and died...and people with weapons had to come in and save the rest...He does not know that we citizens would like to protect ourselves from this or any attack the best way we can.he does not know a gun is the best way..He even mentioned he thinks he is faster and can dis arm a person faster than they can squeeze the trigger..you have to excuse his ignorance..

@Phree,

And I love my Beretta PX4 Storm .40, which would look lovely in it's new CCW holster.

@Despiser

Sweet. I looked at that one as well, but liked the feel of the BEretta. It fits nicely in my hand, and is a sturdy piece of armament .

Maybe the three of you ought to buy Corvettes. Just what are you compensating for?

@Phree

Thanks for the heads up on that web site, looks good, and prices, so far, are very good. I buy my stuff from ex-police who is in that business, but will check out the inventory at cheaperthandirt. Thanks.

I can understand and agree with your views. I DON"T agree with the Dirty Harry types that feel that they are a bigger person because they now have a loaded weapon strapped to their waist, and almost are inviting trouble so they can show off their new "right".

I'm anti-gun but I respect the right of other people to have their guns.
I do not like the idea of them walking around with their guns because I'm sure I'm more likely to be shot by a neighbor than by a criminal. There are more neighbors with guns than criminals nearby.
If you read all the posts here, you will find a few people that believe they should be able to carry any sort of gun, with no training or background check required.
I also think it's amusing the passion some people here have for their guns. If you have one or two, I can believe it's for your protection but many people here have an arsenal and this is clear indication of obsessive behavior and mental imbalance and that is a risk for the neighbors.

wow RB, you're a real pansy @$$ little bit*h!

amen

No offense to you, but to allow ex military a CCW permit or gun permit just because they served in the military is foolish. There are many military personnel that have mental issues when they are released from service. I would not want any one with mental issues to be issues a gun permit

I think only a handful full of ex- military with issues would fall through the cracks for CCW , compared to the thousands and thousands of citizens of Illinois that apply for CCW. Rather take my risk with ex-military.

Whether its is one ex-military (or current military) or one civilian, one is too many. In the past 5 years we have seen instances of both.

Right, that will go over big. Haven't touched a weapon in several decades but you served? Sure - here ya go. That makes a lot of sense. No public safety issues there.

Yes it cost me $100 a year.

Chicago and Cook County Don,t cooperate with the program for retired officers.Even saw the retired Chicago chief have to go to Will County to quilify.

Amen

yes but unlike a police officer I would shoot first and ask questions later and not yell freeze! fight or flight, kill or be killed at least give yourself a fighting chance!

But why should the Police be held to that standard to say freeze, Police before shooting and a citizen doesnt have to say freeze or a warning. Double standards.

Ok, maybe you're right about the freeze thing, but some officers it seems to me are a little hesitant to pull that trigger, more officers and innocent people getting hit in the crossfire than the people they are pursuing

It's not government that wants to be restrictive it is 1 people's actions that cause restrictions,2 it is citizens who demand government do something,they go to government and ask for a law to be passed,if they do not people protest and say they are not dong enough,if they pass it people say they are over stepping their bounds,...It is the citizens actions 100% that cause restrictions..Payphones gone because of drug dealing gangs taking over the phones,not because of cell phones,curfews,because people were getting hurt,kids acting like punks,.Even DUI.. People drank for 30 years and never got into and accident...But now a days people have something to prove on how drunk they can get and still be ok.and as population grows the more people get like this the more the accidents the more the restrictions..What our parents and their parents called fun back in the day they call Felonies today...People need to learn to independent..and being equal to survival is a good start..In reality we are humans and with no tools or weapons we are pretty much useless.We use tools to build,or weapons..with neither tool or weapon survival is minimal..

Well said Edward A. !!!

It has to be concealed.if it is not concealed that would fall under the open carry laws. A lot of the states that have ccp do not have open carry laws. So if you we're carrying and it was noticeable you could be subject to arrest.

@ skb in most states it would be considered brandishing and a misdemeanor if
anything at all. this is something that needs to be addressed in the law. lets say im in the store and i reach to the top shelf and my shirt uncovers my firearm what are the consequences if any.

Right on...responsible people.....it is your responsibility to protect your family...

There are many of protecting your family that dont involve bringing a firearm into the house.

Sorry Sonof John, the federal goverment has done nothing to take away guns from people. That is the BS.

By the way we just had another school shooting today. Proving once again the point that mental sanity check shoud be a mandatory requirement for CCW.

My agenda is about public safety and if there is somthing I'm not is a socialist.
Mental check is something to be done by a doctor not by a government. By the way shooting was in CT not in Chicago.
A person with mental health issues has no business walking around with a firearm.

Do you want to bet the guy bought it legaly?

@RB

You mean like some police officers ?

Agree 100%

@Edward

I was trying to make a point, but it is obvious that is way above your understanding. Since I am disgusting, in your opinion, how about let's talk about all of the zealots <religious> who might opine, that it is the will of God that all things happen for a reason, that maybe HE wanted them in HIS grace at this time ? Yes, the NRA and God seem to go hand in hand. How good are your prayers after the fact and not before?

In some cases, courts have taken away children from their parents when they are no longer able to care for them.

Another thing to ponder is why the people who commit these crimes are usually in their late teens to mid-20's.

Do kids really have it that bad these days?

@RB

Exactly. The NRA and NRA enablers are to blame, but of course, they will not accept blame, as per usual. Their lobby is well entrenched and well funded and have plenty of money to deflect blame somewhere else. Remember the voters whose whole life is Guns, God, Gays who hide behind the flag and church to do their evil works.

Promise?

Hey RB,
That school was a gun-free zone. The Colorado theater: a gun-free zone. Notice anything in common?

Nothing like blaming the people who advocate for RESPONSIBLE, LAWFUL firearms ownership and usage. How exactly is the NRA responsible for this? Try logic and reason, instead of baseless emotion.

Incidentally, this is not a tragedy. It is a heinous CRIME. There is a difference.

Quick to blame the NRA. Well if that makes you feel better go ahead but let this sink in well, the degradation of morality created by the destruction of the family, the declaration that God be removed from all things public, and the ideology that Givernment is the solution to life's ills and desires thus eliminating personal accountability now that is the recipe for what we find ourselves in today. Focus your energy where it will actually make a difference. Funny how 12/21/12 is the supposed end of the world but that actually happened when America lost its way when Progressives gained a hold of the weak minded majority in the country.

"Well if that makes you feel better go ahead but let this sink in well, the degradation of morality created by the destruction of the family, the declaration that God be removed from all things public, and the ideology that Givernment is the solution to life's ills and desires thus eliminating personal accountability now that is the recipe for what we find ourselves in today."

We all live in the same society which is supposed to have this moral decay. Why is it that only a small percentage of people actually commit violent crime?

Then ask yourself those that do, why they choose the gun as their weapon of choice instead of other weapons.

Yes, Son, the price was paid today and will be many other today's in the life of this country. By the way, by the time an armed teacher would be able to react, the shooter would have already done the same amount of damage.

People have said they keep their guns locked up around children because they want to be responsible - ie so the children dont get hurt. Do you propose teachers have firearms in the classroom?

In either Plainfield or Naperville, the police department wanted their school officers to be allowed to keep fire arms locked up inside the high schools. This was voted down because the parents did not think it was wise. If high school parents were against it, don't think grade school parents would be as well.

@ logansdad- currently im in southern IL. the local news is from st louis, mo. earlier the st. louis police chief interviewed and admitted the discussion about arming teachers needs to be revisited. its interesting how 5 hours away from Chicago the conversation can have such a different tone.

Agree Tom, well said. Now if only the liberals believed that, but it takes common sense,something many lack.

Do you think guns 200 years ago are as dangerous as the ones of today? Yes they killed people, but 200 years ago you were not able to fire off a hundred rounds in 10 seconds.

200 years ago did you hear of mass shootings like the ones that seem to be occuring frequently today?

Good post, what say you, liberals.

The difference between the tragedy in China and the terrible tragedy in CT, is nobody died in China. What would have happened in China if that lunatic was armed with guns instead of knives? The answer, a lot of dead children.

We can argue all day, but guns do kill people, that's what they are designed to do.

"* And at a Salt Lake City mall in 2007, an off-duty police officer brought a shooting rampage to an abrupt halt. “I was in a situation that I was carrying my gun,” the hero, Ken Hammond, told reporters"

Don't most off-duty police officers carry their guns at all time?

You also have to ask yourself are the other examples you cited, the exception rather than the rule. There are plenty of all examples were mass shootings have occurred in states that have CCW.

"And while bad guys may be evil, they are not stupid. They don’t typically target gun stores or police stations to perpetrate their crimes."

Oh really. Bad guys are not stupid. I guess you havent heard the local story of the guy robbing a bank with his face shown.

Knives and bats have a purpose other than killing. Handguns and automatic weapons are designed to kill a human being and serves no other purpose.

in AZ the only weapon it is illegal to conceal are nun-chucks. i always found this amusing considering most people would harm themselves with nun-chucks before they would harm anyone else :)

Skb, the Olympic events evolved due to target and range shooting, I understand that. But that's not the initial purpose of these types of guns. They are made to kill people. And no, I don't know the difference between most of these guns. But I do know they are dangerous and are used in all these mass killings.

Isn't the ban on automatic weapons only temporary and about to expire?

The point is the examples you use are tools with a real purpose, that's what they were made for. A rope come on? A bayonet, is an example of something used to kill.
I said I don't know a lot about guns but I'll share what I do know. In my life, I have encountered guns seven times. I was shot at four times, hit once an nearly died. Twice I talked people into giving me their gun. The last one, I was lucky enough to disarm.

It's simple, guns kill. Lunatic attacks school with 3 guns, 28 people are dead. Lunatic attacks school with knives, 30 people stabbed, nobody dead. See the difference? Would you rather face a gun or a knife? Neither are good, but you stand a better chance agaist a knife.

Look back at the weapons that were available when the Constitution was written. You had a weapon that took 30-60 seconds to prep and fire a single shot. Today you have weapons that can fire off 100 rounds in 30 seconds. I highly doubt the founders of this country wanted ordinary citizens to have semi-automatic weapons for defense.

There is a whole bunch more but you get the point now...

A lot of the instances you mentioned above show the cops already on the scene with suspects/criminals. Funny I didnt see any examples where CCW prevented any mass shootings or even aided in bring down a gunman like at the mall shooting early this week or at the school yesterday.

Nice Gish Gallop there.

@ Logan's dad...I'll tell ya what...just don't by a gun..If you.think your that safe..You just sit there and be a good little victim buddy...cops already on the scene..yep and how did they end? With someone else with a gun pulling it on the suspects...Because "Reality" says the criminal WILL ATTACK THE OFFICER....which means if the officer loses the criminal gets away he will do it again....And why didn't the criminals get away?...this is what people are talking about..letting people know your not going to get always with it...And why was the guy able to go into the school?...Oh yeah the school had a ban on guns on the property....And what happens Logan's dad if you removed all the guns in the world?...Here is reality again....People yes average ordinary simple people will make more guns...and who will end up with these guns...You got it bud here is some more reality...Criminals...why will criminals end up with them...Because they will be more valuable than the most expensive drug there ever was..Watch sons of guns bud...PVC,2 wires,9v battery,piece of wood...Made a rocket launcher...You better wake up buddy...reality is there will forever be guns weather you choose to believe so or not...

"...And why was the guy able to go into the school?...Oh yeah the school had a ban on guns on the property...."

The school had security and the doors were locked, but yet he still got in.

"And what happens Logan's dad if you removed all the guns in the world?...Here is reality again...."

THE REALITY WOULD BE THERE WOULD BE NO MORE GUNS.

"The argument will once again start to take away all firearms. Accept the fact that no one will ever be able to do that!"

The Constitution says you have the right to bare arms. It doesnt say which type of gun you allowed to have. Allow every citizen to have a musket or a rife which shoots off a round and then you have to reload. That is still keeping with the Constitution, but yet somehow the gun nuts wouldn't be satisfied. The gun nuts are as bad as the criminals in that they need to be able to shoot off hundreds of rounds in a short period of time in order to defend themselves.

More guns just means more access to those that are disturbed and capable of wreaking havoc in such a horrible manner. All the training I the world won't stop that.

300 million guns, your right, we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. But can't we at least have some reasonable limits on what one can have?

Oh really where in the Constitution does it specifically say citizens should have a semi automatic gun for self defense.

All the Constitution says is that every citizen shall have the right to bare arms. The government can give every citizen a musket and that right would be fulfilled.

Logansdad...careful what you wish for. The constitution does not define ARMS at all but we do know therefore it cannot mean restricted to a musket or anything else. When you look at that argument it really cannot restrict full automatic arms either. Keep pushing and you anti gun nuts will get your wish...stricter interpertation of arms...more powerful guns on the street. I'd shut up if I were you!

"the revolutionary experience caused our forebears to address the need for the people to maintain a citizen-militia for national and state defense....An armed citizenry instead of a standing army was viewed as preventing the possibility of an arbitrary or tyrannical government, as true today as then."

But we have the Army and National Guard today. We also have state, county and local police. There is no need for a citizen militia

Logan's dad semi automatic weapons are "ARMS"

So using your logic, a nuclear weapon would be considered ARMS under the Constitution. I guess you are going to ask Congress to allow ordinary citizen to have nuclear weapons.

Exactly or any rights by the constitution at that...then we have become obedient slaves..with no rights

"Yes there have been mass shootings in states with CCW but guess what they almost always happen in gun free zones. Places or businesses where anti gunners such as you have decided not to allow responsible people to carry their weapons."

And how many people on here who said they are in favor of CCW still keep their guns locked up around children. What good is a locked up gun anyway. You people that favor CCW are nothing but cop wanna bees that think they can stop the next mass shooting.

"The problem in this country is not guns. Guns have been around along time. The problem is moral decay, lack of respect, people who do not take responsibility for their actions or raise their children with any values,and taking religion out of our lives. All this comes with liberalism"

So now it is only liberals who kill others with guns. What a joke.While guns have been around for a long time, it is only within the past 75 years they have become smaller and more powerful. As I said before, if we still had the type of guns where it took 30 seconds or longer to load a bullet and gun powder before firing, do you think people would be using guns as the "weapon of choice"?

For every tragedy that was prevented by CCW, there are likely hundreds of bodies due to guns.

There are exceptions to the First Amendment - not all speech is free.

I would disagree that you should have the right to bare any type of firearm for protection.

"I say we therefore are entitle to equal protection"

If all guns are banned, then everyone does have equal protection. If every one is given a musket then everyone has equal protection.

See you gun activists can never be satisfied because there is chance someone out there will have a faster and more powerful gun than what you have.

Spot On.

Decline of morals and lack are personal responsibility comes from liberalism? Check some of the immoral acts committed by conservative, right wing members of congress and come back and tell us about morals.

"You surely can't blame conservatives for the garbage on TV and in music."
So that is the fault of liberals and not businesses.

"For having to say "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas". "
If I am not mistaken, it is you conservatives who are getting your panties in a bunch over Happy Holidays. The conservatives fail to recognize the fact that other holidays are celebrated in December besides Christmas. I guess it is OK for conservatives to dictate what should be said during the holiday season. So much for the First Amendment.

"You've got to be kidding.You used to be able to buy a handgun over the counter at Ace Hardware. When they first came out anyone could walk into a department store and buy a Thompson submachine gun. 9mm and 45acp and the hand guns that fire them are over 100 years old."

I see you passed over the fact that handguns are smaller and more powerful than they were 100 years ago. Instead of being able to buy them at Ace Hardware, you can now buy them over the internet. Wow, you don't even have to leave your house to buy a gun. Hell I suppose you can even use your smartphone. I bet there is "an app for that".

"But gun control laws only control people who obey the law."
The guns that were used in both the mall shooting and the school shooting this week, were stolen guns - from either friends or family.

If responsible guns owners would have locked up their weapons these shootings might have been prevented.

And its fascists like You,and liberal so called "recessives" in the Democratic party for the most part that will cry for more gun laws, doing absolutely nothing to stop the"criminal" More guns=less crime that has been a proven fact. This deranged criminal stole the firearms and committed murder. Even some senators now are calling for training and arms for security in schools.

More gum law restrictions will "never" stop the criminally insane.

You are a foolish person to think so. Period. or you have an agenda? which is it?

SonofJohn, how is he a "fascist"? And by the the word your looking for, I think is "progressives". Why does anyone with an opposing view need to be labeled? Liberal or Democratic are not interchangeable with fascist, communist or socialist, they are entirely different.

It,s not that easy.You can't buy them and have them sent to you house.You have to make arrangements with a local dealer and have them sent the gun to him.Then the dealer does the background check and verifies your FOID card the same as if you bought it from him.The dealer charges a fee for this service.

"Members of both parties are responsible for the Patriot Act and members from both parties opposed it. Obama has been president for 4 years, 2 with huge majorities but we still have it. Sorry youlose that one too. "

You might want to check your history. The Democrats were the ones who objected to it in 2001 and 2006. Only 3 House Republicans objected to it in 2001 and 13 in 2006.

Obama never had a filibuster proof majority during the first two years he was in office.

"Gay marriage never was a right so it hasn't been taken away."
That is your opinion. If the Conservatives had nothing to fear why did they push for constitutional amendments to make sure same sex marriage was never an option. I am sorry but it was the Republicans who pushed for the amendment to the US Constitution Luckily the courts will be deciding this in 2013.

"And is oppsed by many on the left also."
Funny how every state that allows same sex marriage is considered a blue state.

And don't forget N.D.A.A. under Obama...............

Your off base again as usual. Same rules apply no matter where.

"Maybe you will see the light and support the Constitution."

Give everyone a musket or a BB Gun. They can defend themselves with that. But now that would never be enough for the gun crazies out there that think they need semi-automatic handguns.

"Let me ask. If you are in a 7eleven when a punk comes in to rob the place and rounds everyone up and takes you in the back room would you prefer to have a gun and a chance to defend yourself or would you rather beg for your life and hope the nice young man sticking a gun in your face has second thoughts and doesn't kill you?"

See you automatically assume that you need a gun in order to protect yourself. Why is that?

"Me personally I would rather have the ability to defend myself."
You can't defend yourself no other way except with a gun? You also assume you will have a chance to defend yourself.

If you want to play what-ifs, I can play that came to..Let's say you are at a 7-11 - checking out at the register. A wacko gunman comes in and shoots you the minute he walks through the door. What good is your gun now? You had no chance to protect yourself. No one else in the store had a gun except for you and you were the first one killed. Luckily for the gunman he saw your gun that you were carrying . Now the gunmen has one more gun since he took the gun that you had "hidden" and that you were going to use for defense

Oh yeah I am sure parents will want teachers carrying hand guns in school for protection. Parents in Plainfield did not want the school officer to have a gun locker on the premises. but yet you think allowing more guns is the solution.

Let's allow more guns in schools so some crazy kid who has a beef with the teacher can get access to the guns and have another mass shooting.

You can't find a non-biased site other than the Gun owners of America. Come on. I am surprised you didnt post a link so we can see the comments from the NRA.

You'd be the first one demanding safer schools if your child was shot by another child who brought a gun to school.

I"m finding out now that the Oregon incident ended up with ony two folks dead was due to an ex military man who was carrying. He heard the shots and "
got the drop" on the shooter who immediately shot himself rather than be caught. Result...a CCW person saves MANY. Why didn;t we hear about that? Because the media is on the anti gun side. The CCW guy in Oregon was an ex Marine!

Well not having guns on the school property is not working out so well now is it? What schools were shot up..yep thoes that banned it...

"Wrong. Until Ted Kennedy died he did."

During the first year of the Obama presidency, due to his illness Kennedy missed 261 out of a possible 270 votes in the Senate, denying the Democrats the 60th vote necessary to break a filibuster. In March of 2009, he stopped voting altogether. It wasn’t until Kennedy passed away in late August, 2009, and an interim successor was named on September 24th, 2009, that the Democrats actually had 60 votes.

And even then the 60 vote supermajority was tenuous at best. At the time, then 91 year old Robert Byrd from West Virginia was in frail health. During the last 6 months of 2009, Byrd missed 128 of a possible 183 votes in the Senate. Byrd passed away on June 28, 2010 at the age of 92.

In reality Obama had a fillibuster proof majority for at most 72 days, not 2 years like the Republicans like to promote. Do you think Congress is going to accomplish things in 72 days.

So you admit he had a filibuster proof majority the first 2 years. Thank you.
He was able to get everything he wanted. What was he denied?
Doesn't matter this is a gun control discussion. Don't change the subject.

No I dont. There is difference between having a filibuster proof majority for the full two years like you are claiming.

The first two years consisted of 730 days. The filibuster proof majority was at most 72 days.

Read back through the posts. you are the one who brought up Obama having a majority during his first two years, not me

Scotty, only Senators on the floor of the Senate chamber are allowed to cast votes on bills. Ted Kennedy could've only voted NINE TIMES.

Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned before (and I'm too lazy to go back and scroll through), but there was also the recall in Minnesota.

Scotty it is about common sense and educating those like Logansdad. If it were his son that had died in Conn, he may think differently. There should always be an immediate responder to deadly force for the protection of children. But common sense does not prevail among people like logansdad.

SoJ. Logansignorantdad is struggling here. He is either misinformed or a liar and can't handle being challenged.
I've had about enough. This guy is boring me. I'm done for tonite.

"are you that ignorant I never suggested that a "child" have a firearm in school."

You are ignorant if you think that could never be a possibility. Did you think two high school students would ever bring weapons into their school and kill 13 people?

Why do you think a child could never have a firearm in school?

If a 5 year old brought a hand gun in for show and tell, what makes you think a 10 year old that has issues with classmates or their teacher, can't bring a hand gun into school and do a mass shooting.

"The security officer can have 2-3 special lock boxes in secure areas for this process."

So the by the time the security officer races to these special lock boxes and gets his gun how many people are shot and killed. You also assume the security officer isnt killed before he gets to the lock box.

Again you think that by having a gun on the premises will some how prevent a mass shooting.

So you want no gun free zones in schools, but yet have the guns locked up. Kind of defeats what you are suggesting. Besides the Newton police arrived on the scene within minutes of the shooting.

Why aren't you placing any of the blame on the gun owners in the two shootings last week. After all, the guns used in both shootings were stolen.

Poor Scotty has to run for the night because faced with a tough question of why a gun is weapon of choice for protection. He has no other means of protection except a gun.

Why a gun I'll tell ya why because it is the fastest way to kill an invader of your liberties...not to smart thinking that a criminal should have an equal chance to invade your liberty..you thinks guy that runs into your house with a knife that you should only arm yourself with a knife then right? To make it equal?the quickest way to stop someone is death and how is the fastest way and simplest way to achieve this? A gun..good luck trying to stab an intruder,with a knife maybe your kids can stand and watch or maybe help because they see their father struggling with an intruder..if you need someone to tell you that a Tunis the fastest way to kill someone for the average citizen then you have no common sense and should not have a gun...look at your self as a human being.with no tool or weapon you are useless in the lines of defense against even wild animals..yeah go a head an walk around with your bow and arrow..your letting everyone know your armed..the trick is secrecy..not letting people know..that is a deterrent in its self...

Ok one last post.
Yes when in a gunfight I prefer to have a gun. Actually when a knife, baseball bat, etc fight I prefer to have a gun. Self defense is not about fair or being manly. Its about staying alive. I prefer to win when in a fight for my life. But thats just me. You make your own choices.
Good nite

"when in a gunfight I prefer to have a gun"

You better hope you have better aim than your opponent. If not you and your opponent will both be dead.

"Actually when a knife, baseball bat, etc fight I prefer to have a gun. Self defense is not about fair or being manly. Its about staying alive. I prefer to win when in a fight for my life. But thats just me. You make your own choices."

You make a lot of assumptions in that your opponent will not get your gun away from you and you will not run out of bullets.

Guns provide a false sense of security.

A false sense of security..lol well when my uncle was beating the crap out of my aunt she shot his ass and killed him on my birthday buddy...she did 30 days in county and was let go because it was wait for it wait for it......."Self defense" as the judge ruled..so you see you arguement is completely false...she shot while getting her as beat buddy..boom one shot froma 38 and that's the last person he ever attacked..Shelia Balck killed Ronald Black on October 28 1981 in " self defense"

"If a security officer and principle both armed and trained in the proper use of deadly force were in the school in Conn. and he had use of a firearm the outcome would quite possibly be much different."

The principal was one of the 1st people the gunman killed.

You really need to make up your mind on issues. First you say the security should have their guns locked up in a lock box, now you think they should be allowed to carry them. You really dont know where you stand. It appears as if you are the one with some mental issues,.

Since 1962 we have gone from public schools which taught moral principles and good citizenship with high scholastic achievement, to schools that have disrespect for authority, sex, drugs, anger, knives, guns, murder, no moral teachings, and low SAT scores. There is one thing removed from schools since 1962.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eKGmd9sBwM

And what does that have to do with the topic of gun control. You are very ignorant Tom.

If you adopt a child or marry into a existing family with kids, do those kids not call you mom and dad. Get a clue.

No, just on the bus after school when it's blown up. And you're wrong, there are plenty of killings in Isreal.

Go send your kids to Israel for their schooling if you think they they would be safer getting schooled.

@Son

I watched the video and watched and read other tropes by her and come to the conclusion that she is a Nixonian believer that there are Communists and Socialists everywhere, and that we, the US is under attack from these people. What I realized is that she and others of her ilk are just right-wing purveyors of fear and lies to give credence to her illogical assumptions. Nothing new here just the old packaged crap that the neo-cons of today still spout.

Hey gramps you and your friends that run the union are the new home of the socialists and communists. Your just to blind to see you are being used.
This conversation is about concealed carry and constitutional rights. Keep your commy diatribe out of it.

You people think that just because you have a gun, you think you will be able to use it to defend yourself.

My wife can go out and get killed by a drunk driver just as much as she could be killed in a robbery.

f you want to play what-ifs, I can play that came to..Let's say you are at a 7-11 - checking out at the register. A wacko gunman comes in and shoots you the minute he walks through the door. What good is your gun now? You had no chance to protect yourself. No one else in the store had a gun except for you and you were the first one killed. Luckily for the gunman he saw your gun that you were carrying . Now the gunmen has one more gun since he took the gun that you had "hidden" and that you were going to use for defense.

But gun popularity among women is based on two misconceptions. First, gun advocates often call guns the great equalizer between men and women. In reality, according to a new study by the University of California at Davis, women who own handguns are more than twice as likely to be murdered with a firearm by their partners than those who do not. While this may be partly explained by the fact that women who fear an attack are more apt to buy a gun, the study shows guns often fail to help women protect themselves.

"Having a gun gives women a false sense of security," says Naomi Seligman, communications director of the Violence Policy Center, a Washington non-profit that urges stricter gun control. "Guns can be taken away, and women can be killed by their own guns."

The second misconception is that guns are the only solution to help otherwise "weak" women protect themselves. In fact, a wide range of self-defense options, from chemical sprays to street fighting, gives women the tools to fight back.

Fight, don't shoot

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=7834

I feel sorry for the fools like Skb.

Thanks Nuf said.

Here are the victims' names and ages:

Charlotte Bacon, 6

Daniel Barden, 7

Rachel Davino, 29

Olivia Engel, 6

Josephine Gay, 7

Ana M Marquez-Greene, 6

Dylan Hockley, 6

Dawn Hocksprung, 47

Madeline F. Hsu, 6

Catherine V. Hubbard, 6

Chase Kowalski, 7

Jesse Lewis, 6

James Mattioli, 6

Grace McDonnell, 7

Anne Marie Murphy, 52

Emilie Parker, 6

Jack Pinto, 6

Noah Pozner, 6

Caroline Previdi, 6

Jessica Rekos, 6

Avielle Richman, 6

Lauren Russeau, 30*

Mary Sherlach, 56

Victoria Soto, 27

Benjamin Wheeler, 6

Allison N Wyatt, 6

Son of Sam, can you post anything from a non biased site.

There are many family members of gun shooting victims that feel more gun laws are the answers. I can find just as many people that think the opposite of what you are posting.

I'll keep it simply to facts, how about every one else doing the same.

FBI violent crime stats and gun ownership.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/06/20/2011-fbi-violent-crime-stats-gun-ownership-upcrime-rates-drop/

"Well, the FBI just put out the 2011 violent crime rates, and lo and behold, violent crime decreased 4 percent in 2011."

Well violent crime has been decreasing since 1995, but yet you want to say it is because of CCW.

" Criminology experts said they were surprised and impressed by the national numbers, issued on Monday by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and based on data from more than 13,000 law-enforcement agencies. They said the decline nationally in the number of violent crimes, by 5.5 percent, raised the question, at least in some places, of to what extent crime could continue to fall — or at least fall at the same pace as the past two years. Violent crimes fell nearly the same amount in 2009.

“Remarkable,” said James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University. “Given the fact that we have had some healthy declines in recent years, I fully expected that the improvement would slow. There is only so much air you can squeeze out of a balloon.”

There was no immediate consensus to explain the drop. But some experts said the figures collided with theories about correlations between crime, unemployment and the number of people in prison. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html?_r=0

Just like you want more guns and to be able to carry guns at anytime thanks to the brainwashing by the NRA and pro-gun groups

There is nothing in your article that links the decrease in violent crime to CCW.
As said before violent crime has been decreasing since 1995 which is well before 2002 when you said CCW was enacted

Wisconsin did not have CCW until last year. There was a 40% drop in murders between 1999 and 2011.
The same goes for Illinois. A 40% drop in the murder rate over the same period.

Using your dates Son of Sam, Texas only experienced a 30% drop in the murder rate between 1977 and 1999, Louisiana only experienced a 24% drop in the murder rate.

From 1999 to 2011 there was a 30% drop in the murder rate in Louisiana. In Texas over that same period there was only an 8% drop in the murder rate.

So do you still want to argue that the drop in the violent crime rate is due to CCW?

I just showed you two states that did not have CCW and the murder rate dropped by 30% over a 20 year period.

Furthermore here is a study from an unbiased source that shows CCW laws are not as successful as you think they are.

http://www.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ%20-%20paper%20example.pdf

SonofJohn, no one is going to come and take your guns away. You know as well as the rest of us that the second amendment and the Supreme Court will never allow that.

Reasonable gun control advocates don't believe this killer is a "regular gun guy", we know he was a deranged individual. I'm a control advocate and I'm not after your guns, I just a want reasonable, common sense approach to gun ownership. Keep your normal handguns if you want them, hunting rifles and wherever is used for target shooting, competition, things like that.

There's no real reason for assault rifles and guns of any kind or the bullets this killer used that are meant to inflict the most damage possible. Maybe we should leave these weapons to the police and the soldiers.

Nothing you can say will teach the unteachable. They want big government, they are progressive socialists with a cradle to grave mentality.

They have an agenda you can be sure of that.

You fall into that group Son of Sam. Have you actually done any of your own research. I doubt it. All you have done is copy and pasted links that support your agenda. I have provided proof that disputes your so-called facts - facts that have been provided by pro-gun groups.

Those links are from news articles from news papers all across the country. The statisics come from Justice Dept studies, National Safety Council studies, University of Chicago studies. Hardly pro gun organizations. The 911 trans scripts are what they are. Actuall 911 calls.
I've seen the info you site LogansDad,. The Violence Policy Center is a anti gun organization. University of California please It doesn't get more anti gun than that. Don't tell me about credible research.
Your bias and closed mindedness are discrediting your arguements

"Those links are from news articles from news papers all across the country".
If you look at them, some are editorials and opinion pieces which don't even site their sources. As you know from the so called facts spewed during the presidential election, stats can be cherry-picked.

The statistics I sited were from actual state crime statistics, they are hardly biased.
I have actually shown a drop in the murder rate in states with CCW and without CCW so you can't say the drop in murders nationwide is all due to CCW like someone has claimed.

I can give news articles from all across the country showing law abiding citizens defending themselves against criminals with firearms. Those are indesputable.
Statistics can be scewed by anyone to achieve whatever result they want. Cherry picking time frames to get optimal highs and lows, disregarding instances were no one was shot , but a weapon was brandished and the criminal fled etc. Both sides will work statistics to their favor. Real life instances cannot be disputed.
I gather your argument is we should ban all guns and we would be safer?

check this out.....

http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/cii/cii05/cii05_Section_II_Pg27_to_198.pdf

We need more trained people, why not just give every teacher and child a bullet proof vest.

We don't need more ordinary citizens that think they are Rambo or Jack Bauer. Don't you think if ordinary citizens wanted to be trained like a SWAT Team member or marine, they would have joined themilitary or the police force.

Instead of Home Economics being taught in high school, why don't we just have fire arms training and make it mandatory every high school has a gun range.

Ed that is all nice fiction if you are writing a script for a TV episode or a movie. Why don't we train ever citizen to be like Jack Bauer?

Conservatives think teachers are over paid, but now they think they should have SWAT training so they can protect children. Where do you think all this money for training is going to come from? And what happens if the teachers themselves don;t want to be trained?

Correct me if I am wrong, but that is why schools hire security guards.

Now suppose what might have occurred if the the shooter's mother never bought the weapons in the 1st place.

Edward nothing you can say will convince logansdad, he is a dyed in the wool progressive/socialist/liberal. fact not fiction. He is so misinformed and probably tied to
liberal institutions with an agenda. And the agenda is not individual liberty and freedom.,:He is a pack animal one of the sheep in my opinion.
probably a paid progressive.

I have given him numerous facts and articles that he brushes off. so you are right, we need a militia trained by local police force, we need teachers trained and armed, we need parents to be educated outside our liberal established school systems. What people like Logansdad fail to understand is theat more laws only protect the criminal. The facts prove this out. i too feel sorry for Logan, he will never be a productive citizen as long as dad teaches him to cower in the shadows.

"we need a militia trained by local police force"

We do have a militia. It's called the National Guard.

"we need teachers trained and armed"

Would you be willing to pay for that? Highly doubtful.

"we need parents to be educated outside our liberal established school systems."

So you can fill them up with your own personal bile at an impressionable age by homeschooling them? GMAFB.

Oh Son of Sam you think you posted facts. I see you havent been able to dispute what I have proved through actual crime stats. States without CCW showed a large decrease in murders but yet you still want to think it was all due to CCW. You have been brainwashed by the pro gun groups.

It's people like you who believe they are safer by packing. You must be trying to make up for shortcomings in other areas.

Let's have 5 years of psychological testing and mental health exams before anyone can get a gun. Is that the change you were thinking of?

Are you going to suggest a law that everyone that currently last a FOID car get a mental health exam every six months just to make sure they are still competent to carry a gun. If they aren't how the heck to propose they give up the gun?

It sounds like Son of Sam needs to undergo some evaluations.

You are foolish to think I am defenseless if I dont subscribe to your Wild Wild West mentality of needing a gun for protection.
Tom you didnt ask any questions. All you did is dream up what if scenarios to emphasize your point.

Hey Tom, why don't you worry about protecting your own family. My family and I are perfectly safe.

Your mentality is what will NOT keep your family safe. You are still under the belief that you will have the chance to use your gun in any circumstance.

I am just as good at making up what if scenarios as you.

Mommy why is daddy Tom dead. Sweetie, daddy died trying to be Rambo. He thought he could save everyone with the ideas he learned from the NRA. Now you are going to grow up with out a daddy.

Mommy why is daddy Tom dead. He got shot by a robber at the 7-11. The robber came in and killed him. But mommy wasn't daddy Tom carrying his gun. Yes, Timmy he was, but he never had the chance to use it

News report: Tom Koz and his wife were killed in a tragic shooting today. Their son got a hold of their firearm arm and shot them both while they were sleeping before turning the gun on himself. No one knows why their son snapped.

If you think you and your family are perfectly safe, you clearly have issues.

There is no one on the face of the Earth that is "perfectly safe".

While true Ernie, I am not going to live my life being paranoid that there is a person lurking around every corner that is out to get me. If I am killed, I am killed. It is God's plan.

Tom Koz, now you're showing yourself to be a sick individual making these statements and scenarios for his family. No wonder you're a gun nut.

Here's a simple question: If noone had guns (except those that use ones meant for hunting and do hunt), that means, both good guys and bad guys, would the world be a safer place?

I know it's not possible now, but what if?

If no one had guns, the biggest meanest individuals would prosper. At the expense of women, the elderly and the weak.

Guns did not make human nature.

That's all we need to do is arm the elderly and the weak so there guns will be taken by the strong. They will be the target of gun theft by thieves. How many gun murders were there in Australia and England this year Ernie?

There you go, Ron. Just let women, the elderly and the weak be victimized, raped and killed?

Women and the elderly successfully use firearms for defense daily. Why should they not have the same rights as everyone else, Ron?

Use evidence to support your claims Ernie. Just because you say it doesn't mean it is true. Perhaps you can show how effective a 70 year old woman is with a pistol?

Ernie, not neccessarily true. There is strength in numbers and as most know the bullies in the world are harmless when outnumbered.

As I said, it would be a nice "what if?". To feel safe with no need for a weapon of any kind.

Sure, Stones. Strength in numbers. Mob mentality, mob crime, . . . ring a bell?

Tighten those rose-colored glasses.

Not what I meant Ernie. The strong and aggresive, or bullies are less likely to brutalize anyone when outnumbered. Not mob mentality, it doesn't work in reverse, at least not that I have seen.

Really Stones,
Have you heard of street gangs? Gang crime? Give me a break. Only good people hang out in groups? How about the flash gang attacks by teens in Chicago?

People are people. Guns don't turn them evil.

Ernie, the gangs would be an example of the bullies. In fact, the perfect example. Do you believe any of them would be as aggressive and dangerous if outnumbered and unarmed especially if the general public was willing to stand up to them? They are cowards when armed and even bigger when not.

Hey Tom, you and Ed should be writers for dramas on Fox News. You have good imaginations. For every what if scenario, you can dream up in your little mind, there are others than can play out.

Are you speaking for the "loins"here?

Vera, absolutely true. It seems nobody is ever really safe, best to be vigilant to best avoid being the victim of a crime of opportunity.

I don't beleive that anyone asserted that concealed carry was a guarantee of safety. Concealed carry licensees are not the same kind of target that the police are, since their appearance and duties are not the same.

Firearms are statistically the best defense against violent crime. That's why the police carry them.

Is that why the police don't carry guns in London?

They do, Ron. The unarmed bobby is becoming a thing of the past.

There's a reason for that. There is hardly any gun murders in London at all. Yet some clueless people on this article seem to think that its ok to arm the elderly.

Despiser check it out:
http://www.policeone.com/international/articles/1957829-Britain-deploys-permanently-armed-police-in-London/

And the officers killed every year in the line of duty. That's because they're the least of the targets?

No Ernie, they're are killed in spite of the fact that they are armed and trained.

Yes because they are targeted. You are making my point.

No, you're making my point. Being armed doesn't neccessarily help.

I don't know if he means to be ignorant or stupid. There is a difference between 'stupid' and 'ignorant'.

Ignorant, is not knowing something through no fault of your own.
For example, when you visit a foreign country for the first time, you will probably be ignorant of any local customs in the places you are visiting. It is not a negative word.

Stupid, on the other hand, is when you continue to believe something is true, when presented with its counter-proof. For example, holding onto an exploding firecracker after it is lit to prove it doesn't hurt. And then... doing it AGAIN.

http://www.policeone.com/international/articles/1957829-Britain-deploys-permanently-armed-police-in-London/

So which are you?

Ah. Like the shooting in Washington State of 4 officers in a coffee shop? Shooter entered and opened fire. No police action was taking place.

Son of Sam,

You know for a fact it wasn't God's plan???

I am foolish because I feel the risk of getting shot is low?
If you wnat to be paranoid and live in fear go ahead.

There is a chance the Earth can be hit by an asteroid. If you want to prepare for that and live in fear, go ahead. Do what you want.

Oh really Son of Sam,

That is not what this report shows, My chart is from 2007 but it is still more current than your information from 2002

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data

Firearm deaths per 100,000 in the US was 2.97, in the UK it was .007

Son of Sam,

Does a legally purchased gun for protection, mean that it will be used for that and not kill anyone accidently?

Accidental deaths by firearm (per capita) have been going down for decades. Check with the National Safety Council.

yes Mom we do have a problem with the insane and those on drugs. Government could do much much better by enforcing the already thousands of laws on the books, don't you agree? look at the shootings over the last 15 years all these shooters had mental problems and were on mind altering drugs prescribed by their mental health practitioner. Were these people reported to the proper government officials? No.

I don't have all the answers but do know that in Chicago with all the thousands of gun restrictions less guns in the hands of honest hard working citizens has created one of the highest murder rates in the nation. Criminals and gangs run the streets of Chicago and nothing is being done to stop it. Chicago with some of the harshest gun restrictions has become the murder capital of American cities.,
what is the count so far this year, Mom?

I say if you are being treated by a psychiatrist you need to be on the NO GUN list.

SonofJohn, the gangbangers are mostly killing each other. Yes there are terrible instances of innocent bystanders being shot and killed, but do you really think arming them will help? Personally, I don't want to see more guns in those war zones.

"Government could do much much better by enforcing the already thousands of laws on the books, don't you agree?"

They do in my opinion.

"I don't have all the answers but do know that in Chicago with all the thousands of gun restrictions less guns in the hands of honest hard working citizens has created one of the highest murder rates in the nation."

Son of Sam, you might want to do more research before you post your so called facts.
According to Redeye Chicago was 6 of 14 largest cities when it came to murders.
If you break it down by per capita, Chicago is even lower when all cities are taken into account.
Of the largest US cities, Chicago is the only one that doesnt have CCW, so once again your theory about CCW preventing crime has been debunked.

What a stupid question. Do drug laws stop people from doing drugs?
Do DUI laws stop people from drinking and driving

Does having TSA at the airport stop people from getting onto planes with items they shouldnt?

"When we did wrong we got reprimanded and some even got the paddle from a teacher, then they got the paddle from their parents. There was real direction and
moral teaching for the child until 1962 when evil entered America and prayer was removed from public school systems. "

If you want your child to have prayer in school, send them to a private school or home school them. That is your option as a parent. Don't go forcing your beliefs on others. There is a separation of church and state.

"There was real direction and moral teaching for the child until 1962 when evil entered America and prayer was removed from public school systems. Since 1962 communism and progressive liberalism has crept into our school systems. Our testing methods were infiltratedby socialist view points, there are facts to back what I am saying."

You sound exactly like scotty, now we know where you get your paranoia from.

"When good people do nothing evil prevails."
So I bet you are going to save us from all the evil with your gun.

There is no mention of "self defense" in the second amendment. So your beliefs are based on something you made up. Plus, the whole idea of a "welll regulated militia", is never even considered.

The Second Amendment:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

MOM, And you and the world wonders why we have gone from a truly free republic to the cesspool that is now a part of every big city in America. Mom you need to turn to the scriptures and determine what is really said. God say's homosexuals are an abomination and deserve death. period. The same for lesbians. The problem is not in what was said , the problem is your lack of understanding. It's not my hateful comments, but the word of God that was removed from our system by socialist progressives.
Marriage between a man and a woman was instituted by God with Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:24
Homosexual behavior makes both men and women more vulnerable to disease and decreases lifespan. See: R.S. Hogg, S.A. Strathdee, KJ Craib, M.V. O’Shaughnessy, J.S. Montaner and M.T. “Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men,” International Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 26 (“If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday”) / Executive Summary, “Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality,” Medical Institute of Sexual Health (1999) (”Homosexual men are at significantly increased risk for HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, anal cancer, gonorrhea and gastrointestinal infections.” “Women who have sex with women are at significantly increased risk of bacterial vaginosis, breast cancer and ovarian cancer than are heterosexual women

I'm not an expert on weaponry, nor am I a liberal progressive, socialist or whatever you want to label me. I actually a right-leaning moderate. I would consider an "assault weapon" anything that is capable of rapid fire for the most part. Isn't that what the killer in Newtown used? All of those victims were shot multiple times. Is that possible with one trigger pull at a time in a short period of time?

Once again, I'm not willing to or trying to take away your guns. I just want reasonable control to prevent these mass killings. One was too many but now they are coming with more frequency. If that means limiting the most dangerous ones, so be it. Our rights do have limits, why should the second ammendment be any different? Free speech, yes, but you can't shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is none. I can't threaten you, it's just speech, but in and of it's self it is a crime.

Why can't there be a compromise of some sort? Somewhere in the middle where you keep your right to bear arms but we become a bit safer as a society.

"Militia=People one and the same.fact.... In the British colony of Massachusetts Bay, all able-bodied men between the ages of 16 and 60 were required to participate in their local militia."

Wake up this is not the 1770's. Today we have police departments - local county and state, the national guard and an organized military.

We don't need any local mobs aka militias patrolling the streets.

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html

For a definition of today's militia as defined, by statute, in the United States Code, click here.

A militia is always subject to federal, state, or local government control. A "private" militia or army not under government control could be considered illegal and in rebellion, and as a result subject to harsh punishment. (See Macnutt, Karen L., Militias, Women and Guns Magazine, March, 1995.)

Some argue that since the militias are "owned," or under the command of the states, that the states are free to disarm their militia if they so choose, and therefore of course no individual right to keep arms exists. The Militia is not "owned," rather it is controlled, organized, et. cetera, by governments. The federal government as well as the states have no legitimate power to disarm the people from which militias are organized. Unfortunately, few jurists today hold this view. (See Reynolds, Glen Harlan, A Critical Guide to the Second Amendment, 62 Tenn. L. Rev. 461-511 [1995].)

You as an individual are not a militia. Also consider, things change, even in Massachusetts. Isn't that where they burned witches at the stake? I guess we should still allow that?

Any rifle that can shoot 5 to 7 rounds on 20+ people in about 3 minutes like it happened in CT should be considered an assault rifle. SoJ stop with the NRA BS. Show some respect for the people that died, thanks to your definition of "not assault rifle".

There's nothing to "Get over", whether what was used in Newtown (not Sandy), was full auto or not is not the point. It fired a boat load of rounds in a very short period of time.
Impressive video, but can most people shoot like that? Can you? Watch this video, very short as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCzOLEoko6o. It's on YouTube right along side yours, it's titled "Chick almost shoots herself". She's at a gun range, likely with a responsible gun owner just like yourself.

Here's a couple more for you Tom. Examples of responsible gun ownership and use:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jorzSPYTQc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u-LOAf89UE

Using your logic Tom, we should all being able to carry and use nuclear weapons to defend ourselves since you seem to think it is covered under the 2nd Amendment.

The Bath bombing was a very isolated incident that happened a very long time ago and hasn't happened since. And it's something you were likely unaware of until this massacre in Newtown.

Maybe if he had access to the weapons available now, it would have been a school shooting as well.

And once again, you are using an example of a tool that has another use besides killing people. Bombs, or dynamite which was used in Bath, MI are used in road consrtuction, mining, avalanche management, etc. See the difference? I'll answer that....no, because your too afraid and paranoid that someone will come and take away your guns and your rights. Your too effing stupid to understand that some of us (57% in the most recent poll) want reasonable restrictions. Not take you little bit of manhood away, just keep you from having guns typiically used in mass killings so the real nuts can't steal them from you. Because, not every legal gun owner is a responsible gun owner.

Don't you think the Patriot Act infringed on some are rights? Were you in favor of that? If so, why?

Tom, yes maybe I am getting a little testy because I'm trying to be reasonable and asking for certain restictions, not taking away everyone's guns. An limitied restrictions does not mean the first step in taking away everthing. You on the otherhand, aren't willing to accept any change or even that's it's negotiable.

BTW, thanks for serving, I greatly appreciate and honor all of our military and first responders. We're nothing without them. The ironic part of that is, in 1979, the Navy, Army and Marines all turned me down for enlistment because I only have one lung due to the fact that I took a ,38 to the chest in 1972. I guess that's a bit of the reason why I have stong feelings on this issue. Yet, I don't want to take away your .38, just the "assualt" type weapons.

I'm not convinced the Newton killer could fire the 6 shooters like that. You never answered if everyone can shoot like that. The guy in the video looked like a professional. "Thinning the herd", very funny.....and true.